Representing the third generation….

[Zag]

Where do you stop? Should you include the M100 too as it is a wedge, was built alongside the esprit using common chassis / body techniques so still could be classed as a third gen car.

[richardw]

I'm OK with the idea IF the board index is updated to include Esprit -specific sections.

Examples : Esprit turbo engine; Esprit suspension: Esprit Bodywork etc etc.

I wouldn't want to have Esprit -specific technical chats within the current Excel sections on Engines, Suspension, Bodywork etc.

This way I could choose to ignore, or enjoy, Esprit-specific technical discussions.

Otherwise, without Esprit-specific sections, I’m firmly against it.

But I'm not against the IDEA of bringing the two communities together under one roof here on The Lotus Grand Tourers forum.

The success will depend upon the detailed organisation and proper monitoring of content.
Big job, but someone will have to do it otherwise there'll be fireworks IMHO.

Exactly my feelings Peter. As I said, if there is the demand, a new sub forum could be set up to contain Esprit topics in order that they don’t get mixed up with the 4 seater topics.

Cheers, Richard

[richardw]

Where do you stop? Should you include the M100 too as it is a wedge, was built alongside the esprit using common chassis / body techniques so still could be classed as a third gen car.

I think that a very clear distinction can be drawn between the Elite, Eclat, Esprit and Excel which all originate from the same product strategy in the 1970s, and the M100 which is not a Grand Tourer (which you can argue the Esprit is) but was a completely new design with no heritage shared with ‘our’ models. I think that Graham Robson’s book, ‘The Third Generation Lotuses’, defines the Grand Tourers well.

Cheers, Richard

[shaunw]

Where do you stop? Should you include the M100 too as it is a wedge, was built alongside the esprit using common chassis / body techniques so still could be classed as a third gen car.

Well for starters the Elan is front wheel drive and has a 'non Lotus' engine. Comparwd to the 70s design based wedges I would say it has more differences than similarities

Shaun

[Zag]

"Well for starters the Elan is front wheel drive and has a 'non Lotus' engine"

But it has the engine in the front unlike the esprit and if it is all about the engine why not included the Jenson Healey and the Sunbeam? They are both front engined and rwd.

"I think that a very clear distinction can be drawn between the Elite, Eclat, Esprit and Excel which all originate from the same product strategy in the 1970s, and the M100 which is not a Grand Tourer (which you can argue the Esprit is)"

I'd argue that the Esprit isn't a GT, it is an evolution of the Europa, should this then be included too? and if this is the M100 comes back into the fray as it shares components with later esprits.

My point is the the Elite, Eclat and Excel are clearly related and this site caters for them brilliantly. Why dilute it? If Esprit owners want to join no issue but there are more than enough dedicated resources out there for the Esprit already.

[richardw]

From Graham Robson’s ‘The Third Generation Lotuses:’

“Almost by definition, Chapman’s choice of a physically larger, 2 litre engine, rated at about 150bhp, meant that he was abandoning the Elan market…For the 1970s, accordingly, he decreed that two new designs, effectively of the same family and philosophy, were to be laid down. One was to have a front-engined layout…while the other would be a pure mid-engined two-seater coupe.”

Also, I hope I have made it clear that there will be no dilution of the existing forum as a result of our plans. I agree that Esprit owners have plenty of technical resource elsewhere. The intention is to involve Esprit owners in representing the third generation era so we can tell the full story of Lotus Cars in those years.

Cheers, Richard

[AndrewWebber]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/295405959013 ... R77Xys6xYQ

[richardw]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/295405959013 ... R77Xys6xYQ

Good spot Andy. Bought it and will bring it to shows etc so members can see the contents.

Cheers, Richard

[richardw]

I posted the following on The Lotus Grand Tourers Facebook group today:

CLUB ANNOUNCEMENT

After a number of discussions with Esprit owners and review within the Lotus Grand Tourers club, we have decided to expand the family of Lotus models we represent to include the Lotus Esprit.

The idea behind this is to return to Colin Chapman’s original strategy in the early 1970s of moving Lotus upmarket with a family of three models - the Elite (1974), Eclat (1975) and Esprit (also 1975). These cars were developed by the same people - key amongst them being Chapman himself, Mike Kimberley, Tony Rudd and Oliver Winterbottom. The transformation of such a small car manufacturer as Lotus at the time was remarkable, within just a few years producing a completely new range, with significant local content, that competed with the best in the industry. The achievement is a tribute to all who were involved. This generation of cars - together with the Excel launched in 1982 - was subsequently named ‘The Third Generation Lotuses’ by Graham Robson in his 1983 book of the same name. It is clear from looking at Lotus publicity and advertising material at the time that all of these models were considered part of one family, although addressing different markets. The Excel was the last road car developed under the supervision of Colin Chapman, meaning that another common theme amongst the cars we represent that they were all developed with the great man’s input.

We would therefore like to invite Esprit owners to join us. There is no subscription, and we do not aim to compete with or replace any of the excellent Esprit forums or clubs in existence. Rather, we are a place to go for those who wish to see their cars represented as part of the Lotus model family at the time, and so will complement existing clubs. Central to our plans is to present all models as part of the third generation family at shows and events, so Lotus road car history from the 70s and 80s can be seen in full context.

We will be revising the club logo to reflect our new focus soon, and existing four seater members (including me!) need not worry about any change negatively affecting them - our existing and popular lotusexcel.net forum remains as is, containing a wealth of technical and historical information relating to the four seaters.

Cheers, Richard

[AndrewWebber]

Very well scripted Richard.

Andy

[Pete Boole]

^^ What Andy said

Pete

[hodders]

Out of interest, what were the numbers of responses "in favour" and "opposed" to this proposal? Or was it just an executive decision?

[richardw]

The responses are in this thread. In addition this was discussed on our club Zoom call and with the club committee, both of which were supportive of the proposal. The summary above addresses the concerns expressed.

Cheers, Richard

[hodders]

The responses are in this thread. In addition this was discussed on our club Zoom call and with the club committee, both of which were supportive of the proposal. The summary above addresses the concerns expressed.

Cheers, Richard

For the record - I think there were 7 responses in favour, 2 undecided/with caveats and 5 against. I don't know what was said on Zoom calls or in a committee meeting. Are the minutes published anywhere?
I'm not intending to kick up trouble but it's quite a change in direction from the original basis of this forum, and I've been a forum member for over 16 years, others much longer.

[richardw]

I think there may be a misunderstanding here regarding the future of the lotusexcel.net forum. As I have said, the forum will remain as is, so any fears on those grounds are misplaced. The way things have evolved, it is really the Facebook group that is the home of The Lotus Grand Tourers Club, with lotusexcel.net being the linked special interest forum for the four seater cars, continuing to run as it has in the past with some useful enhancements.

I believe that when opportunities for positive change present themselves, we should be prepared to grasp them as long as they don’t affect what we already have. In this case, as the forum will be unaffected, I don’t see a major effect. It is also the case that responses to new proposals tend to be skewed towards those who foresee problems, which means that we must look carefully at the qualitative nature of those responses and deal with the issues raised therein, which I hope you can see has been carried out.

When I first became involved about 10 years ago, I certainly felt then that not only Esprit owners but much of the Lotus community at the time looked a bit askance at us. Were this still the case today, I don’t believe this opportunity would have presented itself - and if it had I would agree that it would not be appropriate. Now, our cars are much more appreciated by the Lotus community, and once more sit comfortably next to the Esprit, having emerged from a long period of neglect. A major part of what I and the committee have tried to do is to give the cars the public profile they deserve, reflecting the efforts our members make to present their cars well and share experiences in restoration and repair.

Regarding the procedural issues you identify, no we don’t have formal minutes of zoom meetings, nor do we have minutes of committee meetings. The committee is an informal forum for discussion and approval of decisions we need to take. May I remind you that we charge no membership fees and the people who support this forum and the club do so willingly and voluntarily.

If you are still unhappy with the way the forum is run, or believe that we handle matters unsatisfactorily, then you are welcome to either put forward constructive proposals, or offer yourself for election as the new club coordinator. I have previously asked if anybody would be prepared to take part or all of the role, but that request was met with silence.

Best wishes

Richard