Getrag/W58 comparison

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Pete Boole
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Getrag/W58 comparison

Post by Pete Boole »

I have never driven a car with the Getrag gearbox and it is over 10 years since I have used a W58. Can someone with experience of using both boxes comment on how each is to use. I get the impression that the Getrag is a nice strong 'box but not a very slick change. I want to know if it's worth trying to get a W58 in my Elite.

TIA

Pete

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Re: Getrag/W58 comparison

Post by shaunw »

The w58 can have a superb rifle bolt action but only if there are no worn parts. As you know Pete I swapped my gearbox as the gear change was sloppy and unfortunately something other than the easily changed delrin gear selector Bushes was wrong with it. I haven't driven a Getrag box but I cant see how the change can be as satisfying as a good w58. If you do go down the w58 route, make sure you fit new gear selector bushes as this can make a big difference to the action if the old ones are worn.

Shaun

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Re: Getrag/W58 comparison

Post by Pete Boole »

Thanks for that Shaun. What was the other problem with your box? Do you know if the bushes are readily available?

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Re: Getrag/W58 comparison

Post by shaunw »

I'm not sure what the problem was with my old box , my guess is that something was amiss with the selector rods.

The bush I was talking about is a press fit on the bottom of the gear lever and this sits in a nylon (?) seat. The two parts come as a kit and are available from Toyota dealers for about 20 quid. With the box out of the car it takes about 15 minutes to change both parts.

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Re: Getrag/W58 comparison

Post by amarshall »

shaunw wrote:I'm not sure what the problem was with my old box , my guess is that something was amiss with the selector rods.

The bush I was talking about is a press fit on the bottom of the gear lever and this sits in a nylon (?) seat. The two parts come as a kit and are available from Toyota dealers for about 20 quid. With the box out of the car it takes about 15 minutes to change both parts.
And about 25 with it in the car. The worst bit is taking the trim off to get to the gearlever : viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4036
https://www.lotusexcel.co.uk/
SORN - just say NO!

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Re: Getrag/W58 comparison

Post by fueltheburn »

The early w58s get stressed around 250-300ftlb. The later post 89 with the steel sandwich plates are good for MUCH more circa 400+ as proven by many drift cars.

The synchro rings are pretty strong but I have knackered a 3-4 shift fork, it begun to crack (pre 89). I was deliberately trying to find the box's limit.

Hard launches in first can stress the internals and high rpm downshifts is what knackered the 3-4 fork.
Most applications however will not destroy the later box.

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Re: Getrag/W58 comparison

Post by Pete Boole »

Thanks guys. Hopefully this weekend I'll get time to see what makes it difficult to get one in the Elite chassis - I understand that it is the gear change turret that causes the problem. I'll try and remember to take some photos for reference.

Pete

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Re: Getrag/W58 comparison

Post by Esprit2 »

Pete,
Try contacting Barry Spencer at Spencer's Motorsports (formerly Spencer's European) in California, USA. A long time ago, he installed a W58 into a customer's Elite-Eclat (?). It was a successful transplant, but it was also difficult enough that he swore he'd never do it again. So far, he hasn't. I'm not trying to be discouraging, but...

As I recall, the W58 is considerably wider than the stock transmission, and a very snug fit into the Elite-Eclat chassis. Apparently, Lotus widened the chassis/ backbone for the Excel in order to facilitate installing the W58; and without that extra space, wedging one into a narrow Elite-Eclat chassis can be a bit difficult.

Barry had to do some cutting, fabricating & welding on the chassis to make room, and that was complicated by the chassis still being in the car. Overall, the job grew to well more than he had anticipated when he agreed to do the job.

You wrote that you were going to work on the project this weekend, so perhaps by now you've already run into some of the same issues. But unless you've resolved them all, maybe a chat with Barry would be beneficial.

http://www.spencersmotorsports.com/about.html

Barry is no stranger to fabrication. The header photo on the above webpage is 100% his build. It's a custom tube frame chassis & suspension, 'funnycar' Europa body, powered by a Mazda 13B Wankle.

Good luck,
Tim Engel
Last edited by Esprit2 on Sun Sep 22, 2019 19:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Getrag/W58 comparison

Post by Esprit2 »

Pete,

A long time ago, an Elite-Eclat S1 owner posted on another forum about converting his car to a Getrag 5-spd of S2.2 spec. He included sketches of brackets and chassis mods that he fabricated and welded into the chassis. The sketches are far from engineering drawings, with only minimal dimensions, but they give an indication of what sort of fabrication skills would be necessary.

I've uploaded copies of his JPEGs to my Dropbox folder, here:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/bokaggwhe2d5 ... sq6Ta?dl=0

Download copies if you wish. To the far right of each file, there's an icon... a box with three dots in it. Hover the cursor over the box to open a dropdown menu, then click on "Download".

My dropbox account is almost full, so I won't leave the files there for long. If you want them, download copies now, while they're available.

Posting photos to his forum is... well, let's just say not worth the effort IMHO, so I won't be going there. If anyone who is more comfortable with that task thinks the JPEGs might be of value here, then please download and post them.

*~*~*~*
I wish I had something similar to offer for a Toyota W58 conversion, but I don't. Pete, if you go forward with installing a W58 into your car, please make notes, draw sketches, and post 'em here.

I have a 79 Eclat in which the 5-spd's second gear has lost a tooth. Rather than fix a known-weak gearbox, I've been pondering a swap. And in that case, I've been leaning toward the Getrag only because there is this small fragment of information (the JPEGS) about what needs to be done. I would prefer to use a W58, but as far as I can tell, that would be more of a 'start from scratch' project with little if any helpful information available. And given Barry's lack of enthusiasm for the task, I've been leaning the other way.

*~*~*~*
Back in the late 1990s, there was a Brazillian car called the Emme 422T. A designer who had recently styled the Volvo S80 styled the similar looking 422T 4-seat coupe body, and Lotus designed the chassis, suspension and drivetrain. The 422T used Lotus' chargecooled 910S mated to a Tremec T5 5-spd. Unfortunately the company failed. At the time, there were 25 engines and transmission/ bell housings in inventory. The crate motors were sold for US$5000 each, delivered. Three of my friends each bought one, JAE bought a bunch of 'em for parts inventory, and I believe Garry Kemp bought whatever was left over. Lotus' list price for a 910S crate motor was US$25,000, so a heck of a bargain.

I called the guy who was selling off the company assets to ask about the transmissions, or even just the bell housings; but was told they had already been sold to some transmission specialist out on the USA west coast. So I called the specialist. They acknowledged having the transmissions, but said they had no use for the Lotus-specific bell housings, and had scrapped them. By then, they had probably been recycled into beer cans. :cry:

Tremec T5's (formerly the Borg-Warner T5) are easy to come by, and good used ones are cheap. But I really lament missing out on 25 Lotus-specific Tremec bell housings. Bummer... we could have put them to good use.

Regards,
Tim Engel

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Re: Getrag/W58 comparison

Post by Pete Boole »

Thanks for all the info Tim! I already have a Getrag 265 and I'm rebuilding starting with a series 2 galvanised chassis, so fitting it would be straight forward, but I have not read great things about the gear-change with the Getrag so I was thinking about trying to fit the W58.

I sat an old W58 in the chassis today and it definitely will not fit without some fabrication work (unless you move the engine forward). With the tail end of the 'box hard up against the narrow end of the chassis the engine still wanted to go nearly 1" further back. A different gear stick position slightly further forward might help with the install as well (it might be easier to fabricate a new offset lever and gear stick location plate than to modify the side rails of the chassis?). So the bits of the chassis that need changing are the tops of the side rails at their narrowest point and the anti-lozenging "closing" panel at the end of the rectangular part of the chassis with the hole for the prop. I need to get the Getrag in there to see where the gear-stick ends up for comparison.

I'll have a closer look this week to decide if it's worth the effort - it needs a good looking at! I hate welding galvanised steel as well - even when the zinc has been ground off!

If I decide to go ahead I will definitely document it - all you can find on the web is that it's been done - and it's a pain, but no details!

Pete

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Re: Getrag/W58 comparison

Post by Pete Boole »

I have a cunning plan that may leave the chassis virtually untouched!? Not sure how long it may take - stacks of other stuff going on at the mo.

Not sure if I have the long or the short bellhousing - does anyone have the data for the depth of each?

Thanks

Pete

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Re: Getrag/W58 comparison

Post by don.hasi »

I have driven both. The Getrag is very fine. It has a very nice touch and gear changing is a pure joy. I would place it a notch above the W58 of my 91SE. Only downside: the cold weather gear change with the advised gear oil. But the POs had different oil in it, which cured even this.

You won´t be disappointed.
ImageImageImageImageImage

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Re: Getrag/W58 comparison

Post by Pete Boole »

Thanks very much Don! It's good to get some feedback from someone who has used both. I'll still press on with my assessment of fitting the W58, but if using a different oil in the Getrag more-or-less cures the notchy gear-change then I may call it a day on the W58 investigation sooner rather than later.

Pete

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Re: Getrag/W58 comparison

Post by Pete Boole »

Here are the relative positions of the Getrag and Toyota gear lever positions:

Image

It's pretty clear that the Toyota box is never going to work without some severe chassis mods, and most people (including me) would not want to do that in such a structurally important area of the chassis. The obvious answer to the problem is just to make a new gear lever housing putting the stick in the same place as the Getrag. This would be fairly straight forward with a bit of fabrication work. That just leaves the problem of getting the very end of the box into the hole in the chassis. If the new lever housing is made narrower at the back and the two most rearward threaded holes are removed from the casing (there's ample capacity to do this and still leave plenty of width for a gasket), the only thing left to do is to re-profile the circular hole in the chassis end plate to accommodate the rear of the box and to reinforce it with a suitably-shaped plate (say 1/4" steel). As a consequence no welding on the chassis would be required.

This is the bit that needs re-making:

Image

Following Don's observations I'm going to stick with the Getrag for now but will also make a new lever housing sometime as well - just to test the theory!

Pete

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Re: Getrag/W58 comparison

Post by Esprit2 »

Pete,
What do 'G' and 'W' next to the tape hashmarks mean?

Thanks,
Tim Engel

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